Suggestion for Ford: Regional EV only service centers

[davehu]

Once EV's outnumber ICE-Vs, like in Norway, it'll be so much better in so many ways...

a very very long wait unfortunately. perhaps 2050?

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[Firn]

I would think that major Metropolitan areas are more likely to have trained and knowledgeable technicians. My guess is rural areas are the ones less likely to have that capability, especially since sales of EVs is also slower in those areas.

Perhaps Ford could assist customers in transporting the vehicle from their local service center to the nearest "E" certified center. This reduces the burden on the rural dealerships that sells few EVs, but yet provides the customer with experienced staff for their vehicle.

I would also think this would be of benefit for the local, but not servicing, dealer as now they get to provide support to their local customer (who may come in for things like tires, accessories, etc).

 

[FloridaMan655321]

In short, the many modules in our vehicles don't interface perfectly, and Ford, after 3 years (Mach-E and then Lightning) is still not close to solid in their performance in identifying and resolving issues.

Can you explain more on this? Not trying to derail the post, but I'm not aware of these issues. The way you're talking it sounds like something that I should expect?

 

[chl]

I would think that major Metropolitan areas are more likely to have trained and knowledgeable technicians. My guess is rural areas are the ones less likely to have that capability, especially since sales of EVs is also slower in those areas.

Perhaps Ford could assist customers in transporting the vehicle from their local service center to the nearest "E" certified center. This reduces the burden on the rural dealerships that sells few EVs, but yet provides the customer with experienced staff for their vehicle.

I would also think this would be of benefit for the local, but not servicing, dealer as now they get to provide support to their local customer (who may come in for things like tires, accessories, etc).

My local dealership(s) in the Norther Virginia-DC-Maryland area seem to know what they are doing with EVs.

When I had to take it in for the first two CSPs - one required a new battery sensor module which had to be back-ordered - I had dropped the vehicle off and was surprised when they drove it back to my house after the service was done. I only live about 3.7 driving miles from the dealership, but it saved me from having to get the wife to take me there.

The service writer was not that familiar with the EVs, but the tech's were.

When I bought my 2012 Nissan Leaf back in 2011, the Nissan dealership only had one tech that was EV-certified and he served several dealerships so was not there every day. All I ever needed to do was have the battery checked once a year for the 8 years of the warranty, and there was no charge for that. The Leaf has been the most reliable vehicle I have ever owned by far...hoping the Lightning works out as well.

 

[chl]

FORD , like most, is a manufacturer, not a seller. Therefore, they do not get into direct sales and services for their vehicle - they leave that to their DEALERS.

Any 'regional' infrastructure to support EVs would be costly, and would have to have some type of profit-center mechanism to bolster it's existence. It's likely it's not something that Ford can do since they have written dealer agreements to allow only their dealers to help customers. This is why comparing Ford and other legacy manufacturers to Tesla and Rivian and other direct EV sales companies is problematic.

Can a Ford DEALER decide to move into a more 'specialized' EV structure? SURE, and that might be very welcomed, and smart for the future, as many 'legacy' dealers are not yet even sure that they want to even be in the EV business, period.
There are certainly a few Ford dealers who support EVs, with probably a 'younger' generation ownership, and have more certified EV service techs.

True. I did hear some musing about Ford selling EVs directly to consumers a while ago, but nothing has come of it, probably never will - I think it was because FMC was not happy about the dealers marking up the Lightnings in the early days - one dealership around here had a $20k mark-up! F-that!

 

[RickLightning]

Can you explain more on this? Not trying to derail the post, but I'm not aware of these issues. The way you're talking it sounds like something that I should expect?

My truck had battery array modules replaced in May. Powertrain software was pulled at that time, and only released to be updated weeks ago, i.e. 4+ months later.

Several CSPs were to be done, resulting in nearly all modules being updated. GWM and APIM wouldn't update. Tech required to call hotline. Days later, bring it back in after he gets answer, tries everything they suggest (including deleting all my data), nothing works. Next day tries more stuff they suggest. Nothing works. Last thing he tries per the hotline is to remove cables and connect positive and negative for 20+ minutes. Next morning it updates. I pick it up.

No BlueCruise handsfree... Tech gone for 4 day weekend...

@rugedraw suggests I reboot GWM with FORScan. Bingo.

As I said, 3+ years in and they are still learning (Ford and dealers).

 

[FloridaMan655321]

My truck had battery array modules replaced in May. Powertrain software was pulled at that time, and only released to be updated weeks ago, i.e. 4+ months later.

Several CSPs were to be done, resulting in nearly all modules being updated. GWM and APIM wouldn't update. Tech required to call hotline. Days later, bring it back in after he gets answer, tries everything they suggest (including deleting all my data), nothing works. Next day tries more stuff they suggest. Nothing works. Last thing he tries per the hotline is to remove cables and connect positive and negative for 20+ minutes. Next morning it updates. I pick it up.

No BlueCruise handsfree... Tech gone for 4 day weekend...

@rugedraw suggests I reboot GWM with FORScan. Bingo.

As I said, 3+ years in and they are still learning (Ford and dealers).

That certainly sucks, but is this a known issue? Or just some bad luck? Maybe I haven't been reading enough on the forums, but I just haven't seen a lot of posts like this.

 

[chl]

Why couldn’t Ford create regional, EV only service shops that do nothing but EV specific work? Or, allow for 3rd party authorized/trained/equipped shops to open up?
You’d bring your Lightning in for something and they’d say “we’ve seen and fixed this a dozen times and will have your truck ready in a couple days”.

Basically, in a way, that happens naturally, in that some local dealerships having better trained service techs and EV support facilities than others - word of mouth spreads that around.

Around here (DC metro area) there are several dealerships with a good reputation for EV service.

But EVs need little maintenance service if any. Mostly it is software updates, accident or warranty repairs, and recalls/CSPs that need doing, some of it being Over The Air (OTA) - that is, if your LV battery has enough juice.

I got this email recently from Ford subject line "Battery Health and Beyond" (copy attached).


Personal Care for Your Electric Vehicle

Ford’s commitment to ongoing support and guidance is designed to help you keep your electric vehicle in optimal health. And we’ll come right to your home to do it — whether you prefer Ford Pickup & Delivery or Ford Mobile Service.* Our factory‑trained technicians will provide a multi‑point inspection of brake life, battery health, fluid levels, and tire wear to help keep your vehicle in optimal operating condition for miles.

 

[RickLightning]

That certainly sucks, but is this a known issue? Or just some bad luck? Maybe I haven't been reading enough on the forums, but I just haven't seen a lot of posts like this.

I have had a Mach-E for over 3 years, truck for 18 months. The known issue is that they are still learning.

 

[chl]

My truck had battery array modules replaced in May. Powertrain software was pulled at that time, and only released to be updated weeks ago, i.e. 4+ months later.

Several CSPs were to be done, resulting in nearly all modules being updated. GWM and APIM wouldn't update. Tech required to call hotline. Days later, bring it back in after he gets answer, tries everything they suggest (including deleting all my data), nothing works. Next day tries more stuff they suggest. Nothing works. Last thing he tries per the hotline is to remove cables and connect positive and negative for 20+ minutes. Next morning it updates. I pick it up.

No BlueCruise handsfree... Tech gone for 4 day weekend...

@rugedraw suggests I reboot GWM with FORScan. Bingo.

As I said, 3+ years in and they are still learning (Ford and dealers).

The LV battery issue - and poorly trained tech. They are on a learning curve with some inexplicable technical design details - like the LV battery not getting charged enough for updates with normal use thing - and software is always a challenge to cope with.

I never was able to get my FCSP to be added to my FordPass app, but thankfully I don't need it to be to charge.

But nothing I can't live with, so far.

I wish I never had to deal with ICE vehicles again. My wife's Prius hybrid may be our last - so far it has been trouble free but does require servicing regularly.

But...there is always something.

 

[rugedraw]

That certainly sucks, but is this a known issue? Or just some bad luck? Maybe I haven't been reading enough on the forums, but I just haven't seen a lot of posts like this.

It's the same concept as when your laptop or cell phone is running poorly, it is recommended that you restart it.

The different systems in these vehicles communicate via a stategic module network where the GWM serves as a gatekeeper of sorts between all the modules branches. When your phone connectivity acts up, you reboot the APIM or touchscreen. You'll see many people on the forums solve cellular connectivity issues by pulling the fuse of the modem to cause it to reboot.

In @RickLightning case, his dealer ran some procedures that made no sense to me in terms of what they were trying to accomplish by doing what they did. I come to find out, the procedure they were running isn't even applicable to these vehicles and it must have left the GWM in some funky state. After double and triple checking the config of the relevant modules and pulling a/b data off other trucks to compare and look for mismatched data and finding nothing wrong, I asked for a second opinion of one of the resident guru on the ICE forums who also found nothing wrong.

So I said screw it; reboot the GWM. Hands free BC started working immediately after that.

In regards to having EV specific repair facilities......my opinion? It would be a total waste of time, space, resources and money. There is a misconception of what requires an EV certified tech and what doesn't, and most things do not require one. The only time one is needed is to directly work on the HVB. You do not need an EV tech to do a module update for a recall, or to swap out a dead touchscreen, or rotate the tires.

A better solution is reform within dealership practices to make sure this concept is understood; ensuring an EV is not parked in the lot for a week waiting for an "EV Tech" to run an FRDS update on the BECM to satisfy a recall. A prepubescent child can literally do that. 75% of the problems I see on these EV forums can be fixed with a laptop, another 20% with a laptop and basic hand tools, and the other 5% (or less) require an actual EV tech to drop the HVB wearing a rubber suit in a blocked off area.

So, building multiple facilities across the country just for EVs may sound good on paper, but it is completely unnecessary. This is not a Ford thing. I work at a Jaguar/Land Rover dealer with 80 fully functional and air conditioned service bays. We have 30 something techs, and only two are EV cert. When it was just the I-Pace, it was fine. But now, we have plug in hybrid Range Rovers and Range Rover Sports with more PHEV and full EV vehicles coming. It's gonna be the same thing with us. Our Audi store is super backed up with EV's for this reason, too. I've heard countless stories of an EV bricked from an OTA sitting at a dealer for a week waiting for an EV tech to fix it which takes literally minutes. That's ridiculous.

Assuming the manufacturer allows it, shop foremen need to delegate these things to EV techs only when they are needed. I've met up with members from this and the Mach E forum and updated their vehicles for them in my driveway. I'm a car salesman. You mean to tell me a ASE Master certified technician can't do that?

IMO, of course.

Edit: Damn that was a long post.

 

[Scorpio3d]

Basically, in a way, that happens naturally, in that some local dealerships having better trained service techs and EV support facilities than others - word of mouth spreads that around.

Around here (DC metro area) there are several dealerships with a good reputation for EV service.

But EVs need little maintenance service if any. Mostly it is software updates, accident or warranty repairs, and recalls/CSPs that need doing, some of it being Over The Air (OTA) - that is, if your LV battery has enough juice.

I got this email recently from Ford subject line "Battery Health and Beyond" (copy attached).


Personal Care for Your Electric Vehicle

Ford’s commitment to ongoing support and guidance is designed to help you keep your electric vehicle in optimal health. And we’ll come right to your home to do it — whether you prefer Ford Pickup & Delivery or Ford Mobile Service.* Our factory‑trained technicians will provide a multi‑point inspection of brake life, battery health, fluid levels, and tire wear to help keep your vehicle in optimal operating condition for miles.

I received this email as well…..

 

[Scorpio3d]

It's the same concept as when your laptop or cell phone is running poorly, it is recommended that you restart it.

The different systems in these vehicles communicate via a stategic module network where the GWM serves as a gatekeeper of sorts between all the modules branches. When your phone connectivity acts up, you reboot the APIM or touchscreen. You'll see many people on the forums solve cellular connectivity issues by pulling the fuse of the modem to cause it to reboot.

In @RickLightning case, his dealer ran some procedures that made no sense to me in terms of what they were trying to accomplish by doing what they did. I come to find out, the procedure they were running isn't even applicable to these vehicles and it must have left the GWM in some funky state. After double and triple checking the config of the relevant modules and pulling a/b data off other trucks to compare and look for mismatched data and finding nothing wrong, I asked for a second opinion of one of the resident guru on the ICE forums who also found nothing wrong.

So I said screw it; reboot the GWM. Hands free BC started working immediately after that.

In regards to having EV specific repair facilities......my opinion? It would be a total waste of time, space, resources and money. There is a misconception of what requires an EV certified tech and what doesn't, and most things do not require one. The only time one is needed is to directly work on the HVB. You do not need an EV tech to do a module update for a recall, or to swap out a dead touchscreen, or rotate the tires.

A better solution is reform within dealership practices to make sure this concept is understood; ensuring an EV is not parked in the lot for a week waiting for an "EV Tech" to run an FRDS update on the BECM to satisfy a recall. A prepubescent child can literally do that. 75% of the problems I see on these EV forums can be fixed with a laptop, another 20% with a laptop and basic hand tools, and the other 5% (or less) require an actual EV tech to drop the HVB wearing a rubber suit in a blocked off area.

So, building multiple facilities across the country just for EVs may sound good on paper, but it is completely unnecessary. This is not a Ford thing. I work at a Jaguar/Land Rover dealer with 80 fully functional and air conditioned service bays. We have 30 something techs, and only two are EV cert. When it was just the I-Pace, it was fine. But now, we have plug in hybrid Range Rovers and Range Rover Sports with more PHEV and full EV vehicles coming. It's gonna be the same thing with us. Our Audi store is super backed up with EV's for this reason, too. I've heard countless stories of an EV bricked from an OTA sitting at a dealer for a week waiting for an EV tech to fix it which takes literally minutes. That's ridiculous.

Assuming the manufacturer allows it, shop foremen need to delegate these things to EV techs only when they are needed. I've met up with members from this and the Mach E forum and updated their vehicles for them in my driveway. I'm a car salesman. You mean to tell me a ASE Master certified technician can't do that?

IMO, of course.

Edit: Damn that was a long post.

I totally agree with you!-that was a long post???-just kidding!
I have worked on my ICE vehicles in the past. Normal stuff like water pumps, fuel pumps, brake jobs, changing oil, etc. I have a BS in International economics and I own a Carwash, admittedly I am somewhat of a technology nerd and have friends that are ASE certified that have basically just shown me what to do in the past with FDRS for my and my family’s vehicles. I have figured out forscan basically on my own with the help of the Internet and you good people! Most of this stuff is fairly simple to do and FDRS is basically fool proof, If you follow the directions one of those being having a battery maintainer hooked up which it tells you to do when doing updates so it should not be too difficult for someone that does this as their full-time job and should have at least Ford certified training to do these updates.
The high-voltage batteries are probably another story, but I know one of my friends that works on vehicles has replaced batteries in Prius’ and Volts, etc.

 

[chl]

It's the same concept as when your laptop or cell phone is running poorly, it is recommended that you restart it.

The different systems in these vehicles communicate via a stategic module network where the GWM serves as a gatekeeper of sorts between all the modules branches. When your phone connectivity acts up, you reboot the APIM or touchscreen. You'll see many people on the forums solve cellular connectivity issues by pulling the fuse of the modem to cause it to reboot.

In @RickLightning case, his dealer ran some procedures that made no sense to me in terms of what they were trying to accomplish by doing what they did. I come to find out, the procedure they were running isn't even applicable to these vehicles and it must have left the GWM in some funky state. After double and triple checking the config of the relevant modules and pulling a/b data off other trucks to compare and look for mismatched data and finding nothing wrong, I asked for a second opinion of one of the resident guru on the ICE forums who also found nothing wrong.

So I said screw it; reboot the GWM. Hands free BC started working immediately after that.

A better solution is reform within dealership practices to make sure this concept is understood; ensuring an EV is not parked in the lot for a week waiting for an "EV Tech" to run an FRDS update on the BECM to satisfy a recall. A prepubescent child can literally do that. 75% of the problems I see on these EV forums can be fixed with a laptop, another 20% with a laptop and basic hand tools, and the other 5% (or less) require an actual EV tech to drop the HVB wearing a rubber suit in a blocked off area.

Assuming the manufacturer allows it, shop foremen need to delegate these things to EV techs only when they are needed. I've met up with members from this and the Mach E forum and updated their vehicles for them in my driveway. I'm a car salesman. You mean to tell me a ASE Master certified technician can't do that?

IMO, of course.

Edit: Damn that was a long post.

Good points.

There are some updates that are "safety" related - the front parking sensor one for example - so to CYA, Ford is going to want it done by their trained techs and probably in shop.

Also the 24B56 CSP is apparently a 2-1/2 hr procedure that requires the LV battery to be on a battery maintainer to keep it at at least 85% SOC.

Now it is true any shop/or experienced competent DIYer could do the update with the right equipment, but for now, only Ford tech's can/should be trusted with an update related to safety.

Too bad some Ford dealerships tech's are not properly trained. There was one post where the mobile tech hooked up the battery maintainer the wrong way, for example.

Whenever MS sends out a major update, before I install it, I check the internet to see if there have been any serious problems with it, and if so, I put it off. I do not automatically install updates - based on experience it is asking for trouble. I also make system images on a regular basis and before installing major updates just in case. I also have several spare cloned drives made when the system is functioning and virus free, that I can pop in if something goes wrong. Of course all data is backed up regularly to external drives.

Anyway, the point is, software is complicated and lots of things can go wrong. We are now driving computers with wheels, so fingers crossed the software updates have been fully tested before rolling out.

There has been at least one that Ford stopped installing - because it bricked some Lightnings - until they fixed whatever bug it had.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it" could be applied to our Lightnings as well.

MS, a software company, still sends out updates with bugs - recently with Win 11 that crashed a bunch of user laptops - so what are the chances every Ford update will be bug free?

Just saying...

 

[21st Century Truck]

IMHO the continual, and frankly expected, tech labor force turnover in the service bays is a major contribution to the problems discussed here.

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