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Elderly Couple Disgruntled with Sunrun's "Whole Home Backup" Home Integration System

Henry Ford

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Okay. I will have to guess what the code violation is. Are you saying that it's a code violation to allow input from the truck to a panel that can draw more than what the truck supplies? And that is the reason that a "critical load panel" or a subpanel needs to be installed? That would make sense, if it is dangerous to try to pull more from the truck than it can supply.
Forgive me, I wasn't clear. In my example there were multiple code violations. The big one is backfeeding a panel without a lockout system to keep a systematic way to keep current for zapping line workers. A variety of switches would allow a truck or generator to not kill line workers.
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MM in SouthTX

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Forgive me, I wasn't clear. In my example there were multiple code violations. The big one is backfeeding a panel without a lockout system to keep a systematic way to keep current for zapping line workers. A variety of switches would allow a truck or generator to not kill line workers.
No problem. I mentioned a transfer switch though. That negates the backfeeding issue, right? Others? I'm not trying to be at all confrontational. I just need an education.
 

Grumpy2

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All setups require a transfer switch, but a 200 amp capacity switch for the whole breaker panel isn't required or the best solution. Much more realistic is to have a sub panel installed powered with a proper transfer switch just for the critical circuits.
An added benefit: you will know when the line power comes back on when the remaining house powers up.
 
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Jim Lewis

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Thanks for all the feedback. The bit about "Elderly Couple Disgruntled ..." was for the sake of humor. :) But I also intended to convey the idea in the post title that our house has very limited electrical needs for just an old, relatively inactive couple, not a big, young family, in domicile. One thing about wanting to back up our house, a lot of our use is scattered throughout the house, e.g., a security company alarm system powered by an upstairs outlet, security cameras powered by outlets, or doorbell wiring on our front and back porches, our living room, etc., all areas that we'd have no other reason to back up but well within the capacity of the truck to handle since there's nothing else but these low-powered devices on these circuits that Sunrun would probably want us to leave out of their BUP sub-sub-panel scheme.

I've read many previous discussions on this forum about Sunrun vs. alternatives. The wife is adamantly against a gas-powered generator. Scared of explosions, doesn't want the noise, etc. Can't reason with her. Perhaps I don't understand the onboard power, but the 240-volt outlet in the truck bed can't supply as much power as the truck can through the FCSP, can it? I'd like to get the full 9.2 or 9.6 kW out of the truck and not have to run additional cords when the FCSP is going to be plugged into the truck most of the time, anyway, to keep it at ~50% charge, usually.

Regarding the truck not being around, we're in such a mild climate in San Antonio compared to more northern parts of the U.S. and Canada that backup power is more for us at home, not for the house by itself. Our security alarm system has its own backup battery. So, it can still monitor our home and call authorities via its cell line for several days even with no utility power (although that leads to killing its lead-acid backup battery). And most likely, if we went on a trip of any duration and distance, we'd fly to wherever and leave the truck in the garage to back up the house. The wife always jokes that we can buy many, many refrigerator/freezer loads of food for the cost of any home backup system (we use the melted ice cube bin freezer test when we come home to tell if there's been any sort of thaw while we've been away).

The total cost of the installation with installing the FCSP (which comes with my Lariat ER) and the HIS is $8,900 (FCSP and HIS included). But Sunrun found two additional items that need to be done that are covered by a $3,350 "Home Improvement" contract. First, when our main panel was installed on the outside of the garage wall 33 years ago, it was put within 3 feet of the gas meter (actually, within 1.5 ft!). We never realized this was a code violation and no one who has come to do any electrical work on our house and gone to the main panel has ever informed us of this "small" problem. The person who installed a new electric oven in 2014 broke the main panel seal and perhaps did not close up the main panel tightly enough when done. Sunrun found the cover plate inside the panel rusted at the bottom below the breakers and said that was reason to replace the main panel as well have the replacement panel installed a good distance away from the gas meter ($2,650 out of the $3,350 contract for that). Our house needs another line feed to support the FCSP, so the other part of the Home Improvement contract is to run a 100-amp line from the new 120-amp feed our utility will provide to the FCSP with a breaker and the remaining 20-amp left will be on its own breaker, presumably both breakers in our new main panel ($700 for this part of $3,350 contract). So, the total cost for everything is $12,250. We plan to leave a main breaker on the outside wall, as code requires a main breaker to be within 10 ft of the meter, and move the new main panel inside the garage.

Besides wanting to power sent to all the outlets and lightning on our existing sub-panel, I've asked Sunrun if they could split one existing garage outlet off from our garage circuitry, which is all on one 20-amp 120-volt breaker, add a new breaker for the split circuit after removing the dryer circuit from the sub-panel and then run a 120-volt line from the new 20-amp circuit to power that single outlet. That might let me run a 14,000 BTU portable air conditioner on its very own dedicated line, exhausting to the garage attic (see https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...rging-healthier-for-battery.13085/post-298448 and https://www.f150lightningforum.com/...rging-healthier-for-battery.13085/post-298735 and related).

I'm just a poor, starving ex-scientist, but I lucked out marrying an MD, so a Sunrun installation is relatively peanuts compared to the cost of the truck itself. I don't have the knowledge and competency to judge the work of local electricians, so I'd rather pay the premium of going with a Ford partner and get a 12-year warranty on the HIS installation. I assumed, based on my zip code and the following link: Ford Bundle Selection - Sunrun, which comes up with a checkbox result

Ford F-150 Lightning Elderly Couple Disgruntled with Sunrun's "Whole Home Backup" Home Integration System 1676423206635


that trained Sunrun techs were going to do my installation. Instead, I was informed that "our trusted partners" will be contacting you, i.e., a third-party contractor. When I said, WTF, I was told, "Yes, we do have boots on the ground in Texas, but we only have two teams. They can't be everywhere. The people who will work with you are former Sunrun employees in San Antonio. They've been trained in HIS installation, and they've done a number already." So, that's a bit of another reason that there's an elderly couple disgruntled in San Antonio! :rolleyes:

P.S. My Lariat ER is in build week 2/13/23. So, with the current battery issues, it's going to be a while before I see that vehicle. Previous to that, my dealer told me I'd be getting it in March. :(
 
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ChrisCon

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With cost of the system not being a factor for you and other generators off the table due to your wife’s preferences , it seems your best option is to either convince Sunrun to do it the way you want it done or find an excellent electrician that has the skillset and drive to create the system in the way you like it.

I can only speak anecdotally, but my experience with Sunrun and their providers has been abysmal as have the experiences of many others on this board . The State of Charge YouTube channel (which posted an excellent run down of the HIS ) recommends QMERIT and it appears their teams are extremely knowledgable .

Maybe give them a call ?
 

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Jim Lewis

Jim Lewis

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The State of Charge YouTube channel (which posted an excellent run down of the HIS ) recommends QMERIT and it appears their teams are extremely knowledgable .

Maybe give them a call ?
I did give Qmerit a call. At the time, I didn't have the $3,350 additional quote for "home improvement." They said they couldn't match the $8,900 price for the basic home FCSP and HIS installation. The person I spoke to said that most other quotes that he'd heard of ran at least $14K to $15K with all modifications necessary, and the part that beat me(!) was that the guy said that Qmerit was a Ford partner, too (with the Mach-E), and they didn't want to be encroaching on another Ford partner's territory! 🙄. I checked with our electric utility, and they confirmed that both the proximity to the gas meter and the rust in the main panel (a safety issue, they said) needed to be addressed.
 

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To answer your question:

there was a poster here who directly asked Sun run this.

their Response was during back up, any energy generated from the truck will first go to any load on the BUP. any residual energy feeds back into the main. Hence whole home backup.
 

Henry Ford

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No problem. I mentioned a transfer switch though. That negates the backfeeding issue, right? Others? I'm not trying to be at all confrontational. I just need an education.
I completely missed the transfer switch part of the question. Yes, that's the point of the switch. There are different ways to skin the cat but a manual transfer switch like the Generac 6752 - which apparently handles the bonded neutral of the Pro Power Onboard system - is probably the best way to do it.

The worst way to do it is to attach a generator plug directly to a circuit in your panel. That works but has real and significant risk.
 
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Jim Lewis

Jim Lewis

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their Response was during back up, any energy generated from the truck will first go to any load on the BUP. any residual energy feeds back into the main. Hence whole home backup.
That would be great if it were true. But, for instance, here's a Delta circuit schematic for the whole shebang with photovoltaic input. The "critical load panel" is essentially the backup panel (BUP) or restricted loads panel. I don't see any provision for returning unused residual power to the main panel or any subpanel connected to it (but then I'm not very good at reading wiring diagrams or schematics). I imagine any other subpanels in a house are in parallel to the MID device and come off the main panel. They would not be backed up. Image copied from post: https://www.f150lightningforum.com/forum/threads/backup-power.11256/post-233552

The guy who posted the schematic just below refers to the "grid-only main load panel" in his post. Certainly doesn't sound like power feeding back to the main panel in an outage (and you can't let power from the microgrid go back into the power grid during an outage).

Ford F-150 Lightning Elderly Couple Disgruntled with Sunrun's "Whole Home Backup" Home Integration System 1676444063907


And then there is this whole other thread in which another poster essentially found Sunrun telling him the same thing that they seem to be telling me - I have to pick only some of all my outlet and lighting circuits to backup: No whole home backup option with Sunrun | ⚡ F-150 Lightning Forum For Owners, News, Discussions (f150lightningforum.com)

I searched for the post you mentioned about Sunrun telling a user that the unused energy can indeed be diverted from the designated backup panel to the rest of the breakers, but I couldn't find the post. If anyone knows where to find the post on the forum, thanks for a link.

Here's Sunrun's official wiring diagram for the FCSP and HIS, with the Acrel Meter located in the MID/WHB box. If anyone can explain from the wiring diagram how the truck battery can really power the whole house, if circuits that are in what's termed the "Backup Subpanel" in the diagram don't have too much load, I'd appreciate the explanation. Slide 16: https://docs.google.com/presentatio...LiolTZo3G9TQms/edit#slide=id.g12cfb4a2f85_0_0 when you're logged onto the Sunrun Field Website thru a Google account: Field Website - Ford EV Charger (google.com) ).

Ford F-150 Lightning Elderly Couple Disgruntled with Sunrun's "Whole Home Backup" Home Integration System 1676444814770


I'll also ask Sunrun myself for a more precise, technical explanation of how the "Whole Home Backup" setup actually works.
 
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Amps

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The big one is backfeeding a panel without a lockout system to keep a systematic way to keep current for zapping line workers. A variety of switches would allow a truck or generator to not kill line workers.
A little Nextdoor story. A woman posted pictures on Nextdoor of linemen standing around 'doing nothing with their fingers up their a$$es' during a recent power outage. "WHILE HER POWER WAS OUT!" It didn't take long to find out that they were waiting for the circuit to be isolated from a backfeed.
 

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Henry Ford

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A little Nextdoor story. A woman posted pictures on Nextdoor of linemen standing around 'doing nothing with their fingers up their a$$es' during a recent power outage. "WHILE HER POWER WAS OUT!" It didn't take long to find out that they were waiting for the circuit to be isolated from a backfeed.
Slightly off topic but what exactly happened when you backfeed the grid with a generator? Won't it immediately trip the breaker when it attempts to power all of your neighbors houses?
 

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So you have natural gas feeding something in your house, but that item won't blow up but a generator might? Quite scary that an MD thinks that.

Good thing money does matter.
 
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SunRun is unbelievably terrible
 
 





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