What wall outlet for FCSP ?

[JonS]

Can I tell my builder to run a 100 amp circuit and put NEMA 14-50 on it? Is there a problem with this setup. my SR can't take more than 48AMP anyways.

in the future if I ever needed to Hardwire.... a 48AMP charger cannot be hardwired to a 100AMP circuit... am i getting this right? for that I will need a 60 AMP circuit?

thank you all for helping me navigate thru this.

AI

100amp line would give you future flexibility. As others have mentioned you can just run a sub panel on that and split it how you want.

However I personally think that we’re in a time of least efficient EVs. They are only going to get lighter and more efficient from this point. So whatever works now will likely be more than sufficient/overkill in the future.

That being said I have two Tesla Wall Chargers in my garage load balancing a 60amp max line. I’ve also got a J1772 variant Tesla Wall Charger outside on a separate 60amp line (Lightning and CyberTruck in the future).

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[rdr854]

If you are building a new house, I would recommend putting as much juice as you can under the assumption that you will have 2 or more electric vehicles to charge somewhere down the road. It is far cheaper to do now as part of the build process than after the fact. Also, it becomes part of your mortgage.

 

[Calvin H-C]

I would suggest having your electrician run 1 1/2" conduit between your panel and a box where your EVSE is to be located. Since you will be getting a 48 A unit at this time, the electrician can install a 60 A breaker and pull conductors suitable for it (likely a pair of #6 for the power plus a #10 or #8 for grounding - your local code along with the length of the run will dictate what is required).

If there's ever the need to upgrade, the breaker can be replaced and new wires can be pulled with minimal effort. 1 1/2" conduit has more than enough room to move up to 100 A conductors and their ground. Check with your electrician as you may find that even 1" conduit will be sufficient to future-proof your installation.

If installing inside a garage, I also recommend locating the EVSE near the entrance. That way, its cord will reach the front of the vehicle when it's in the garage, and will easily reach the vehicle when it's outside.

 

[Artificial Intelligence]

If installing inside a garage, I also recommend locating the EVSE near the entrance. That way, its cord will reach the front of the vehicle when it's in the garage, and will easily reach the vehicle when it's outside.

great point thank you.

 

[bmwhitetx]

I had mine near the entrance so it could also charge my son’s MachE from the drive. But it was very inconvenient to charge my truck since I would have to wind and unwind the full 25 feet each time since it crossed over where my wife parked. That got old fast.
I now have it installed in the front between our cars (looking to get her a PHEV) but it is unwound and resting on hooks so that the charge handle is only 2 feet from my charge port. I park on the left with charge port next to wall. It is SO easy to charge now. Just open the port and plug in. No unwinding the long cord! If my son needs to charge we just trade places in the garage for a few hours.

So I recommend install it where the majority of the time the cord winding and unwinding is minimized or eliminated. We still have the flexibility to charge from both bays but until then I do no unwinding.

 

[chl]

Future proofing has me thinking but i need a bit of education...

if i've a 100 amp circuit lets say going to NEMA 14-50... would i be able to use a 48AMP chargers on it? like juicebox

For a 48A charger you need a 60A circuit - so a NEMA 14-60 outlet.

The 100A circuit from your main panel to the vehicle/EVSE location in the case that you are planning on connecting to a 48A EVSE should be to a 100A sub-panel with a 60A breaker for the EVSE/charger circuit with the correct 60A plug NEMA 14-60.

If there is a fault in the EVSE a 60A breaker would trip before things inside the EVSE melt or catch fire, a 100A breaker could be risky.

While the wire between from the main panel, assuming it is the right size, should be fine, anything inside the EVSE that would be damaged by an over-current situation is the risk. The EVSE specs should tell you what size breaker to use and you should not over-size or under-size that spec.

An over-sized circuit breaker would trip in the event of a short circuit, but other fault types that could damage the EVSE might still occur - currents over the 60A limit but below the 100A breaker trip level.

For example, if there was some sort of communication glitch between the vehicle and the EVSE, and the vehicle asked for more current that what the EVSE is rated for, and the EVSE tried to provide that current, something bad could happen before the 100A breaker would trip.

This is just one example of the possible risks for an improperly installed EVSE - for more, see:

https://www.vfsfire.com/electric-vehicle-charging-stations-and-fire-risk/

By the way, if you do use a plug/outlet method for your EVSE, use a cover to prevent water entry into the circuit as required by building codes in your area.

Most/all EVSE's have internal ground fault circuitry, but your local building codes may require protection against ground faults, e.g., using GFCI breakers in garages or outdoors. However, these have been problematic when used with EVSE's and EVSE makers advise against it.

"Manufacturer’s Recommendations and Requirements
Most modern Electric Vehicle Supply Equipment (EVSE), or EV chargers, have built-in GFCI protection. When the unit is hardwired, there is no need for a GFCI breaker. If the unit is installed with a plug with a GFCI breaker, there can and will be faulty trips. The sensitivity of the breaker is higher than the EV charger, and the power draw from an EV charger can trip the breaker. Most, if not all, EV Charger manufacturers (Tesla, ChargePoint, Bosch, Nel-x’s Juicebox, and more) state that the EV Chargers should not be installed onto circuits with GFCI protection. Click here for an official Tesla Response. "

Make sure your electrician is aware of this issue if hardwired, as some will think that electrical equipment installed outdoors or in a garage absolutely requires a GFCI breaker even if hard-wired.

New codes (as of circa 2021) state that a GFCI breaker must be installed on a NEMA 14-50 [14-60 too] outlet used for EV charging. A GFCI breaker is designed to prevent a shock hazard when an electrical circuit comes in contact with water. This is a safety precaution to help prevent injury and death.

https://qmerit.com/blog/nema-14-50-and-gfci-breakers-connecting-ev-charging-stations/

 

[Pioneer74]

The 100A circuit from your main panel to the vehicle/EVSE location in the case that you are planning on connecting to a 48A EVSE should be to a 100A sub-panel with a 60A breaker for the EVSE/charger circuit with the correct 50A plug NEMA 14-50.

50 amp breaker. You can't put a 60 amp breaker on a receptacle rated for 50 amps, and the EVSE should be set for 40 amps. A 60 amp breaker would be if you hardwire it, then you could set the EVSE to 48 amps.

 

[chl]

50 amp breaker. You can't put a 60 amp breaker on a receptacle rated for 50 amps, and the EVSE should be set for 40 amps. A 60 amp breaker would be if you hardwire it, then you could set the EVSE to 48 amps.

Right, my typo, will correct with 60A outlet. The original question had 14-50 and I didn't catch it.

 

[Calvin H-C]

I had mine near the entrance so it could also charge my son’s MachE from the drive. But it was very inconvenient to charge my truck since I would have to wind and unwind the full 25 feet each time since it crossed over where my wife parked. That got old fast.

[snip]

So I recommend install it where the majority of the time the cord winding and unwinding is minimized or eliminated.

Good advice - you have to consider how you are likely to use it and what the implications of cord winding and unwinding is, as well as the cord length.

When we built our house back in 2002-4, we put a subpanel in the garage that was on a 60 A circuit off the main panel (200 A service). This subpanel served the garage, shed, and all outdoor outlets so that if anyone tripped a breaker while working outside, they wouldn't have to go inside to reset it.

We purchased a Ford Focus Electric in 2017 and before we took delivery in the fall we chose an EVSE to purchase and install. We have a 2-car garage and the left side was being used by the ICE Focus we already had, so the right side would be home for the FFE. Also, the right side of the garage was an outside wall that had not been finished so it was open studs, and the garage subpanel is in the back right corner of the garage. This made for an easy cable run for the EVSE with only the last 18" or so having to be fished through finished wall to the subpanel.

The EVSE we got was a 32 A unit (about 7.6 kW) and required a 40 A breaker and #8 cable. We used an 8-3 cable because it was actually lower cost than 8-2 (less popular, so stocked in lower quantities), though we didn't need the neutral. The unit has an 18' cable and while most charging would occur with the car in the garage, I could see the need to plug it in in the driveway especially during the day on weekends. This dictated installing it about 3' inside the garage. To plug in inside the garage, the cable must be pulled over the vehicle to reach the port on the left front of the vehicle. A fairly easy maneuver with the FFE. When unplugging, it is a fairly simple task of looping the cable as you walk around to place it on the holder. Possibly because it is only 18' long.

Fast forward to the F-150 Lightning order and the need for a second EVSE. The Lightning will not fit in the garage, as it's about 18-24" too long, so ideally the EVSE should go on the left wall opposite the existing EVSE. Fortunately, our main panel is in the basement on the other side of that wall, and the first floor is about 30" above the garage floor.

We purchased an Emporia EVSE that can be set for 48 A when hard wired. It was a relatively simple matter of drilling a hole through the wall and first floor rim joist to install conduit to the panel which is in a closet with an unfinished ceiling. The location of the hole is about 4' from the back of the garage, so there is an LB coupling to allow the conduit to run along the wall and curve up into the bottom of the EVSE. The conduit on the surface is not that much of a protrusion as the foundation wall creates about a 1.5" ledge:

This EVSE has a 24' cable and because it is 11.5 kW, it is a heavier cable, so having to wind it will be more of an issue than it has been with the original EVSE.

This uses a 60 A breaker in the main panel and is wired with a pair of #6 wires for the power and a #8 for the ground. Our code only requires a #10 to ground something protected by a 60 A breaker, but I prefer to go up a step for grounding if it's not too much trouble or cost.

I considered that the future might see the need to move to an 80 A EVSE on a 100 A circuit. This would require changing the #6 wires to #3. The #8 ground would meet code for that, but knowing me I would probably up it to #6 which could be done using an existing #6 if I strip off the red or black insulation.

I considered using 1.5" conduit since that is typically used for a 100 A 3-wire plus ground run (three #3 and one #6). Considering that a neutral is not likely and a pair of #3 and a #6 can fit in a 1" PVC conduit under our code, I went with 1" which is about 40% less costly. Your code may vary but there will be a percentage fill limit for conduit and you have to add up the cross-section area of the wires and divide by the cross-section of the conduit type and size to find out if its under the limit. 1" worked well because the plug-in cord that came with the EVSE that I removed used a 1" knock-out hole, so I didn't have to punch it larger.

 

[chl]

The Ford 80A EVSE manual requires a 100A breaker, #3 wire for the two hot leads and #6 wire for the ground lead.

If one wanted to use a lower amp set-up, one can set the max amps down from the factory 80A setting to what is desired.

No neutral is required, it assumes a hardwired connection.

Images from the manual attached.

If one wants to use a receptacle, according to the current code, for 60A and above, 4 wire receptacles are required, requiring both ground and neural wires.

But the code allows for connections from the receptacle to match the appliance, e.g., the EVSE.

So it seems one would have to use the required 4 wires from the panel to the receptacle.

But one would be allowed by the code to connect 3 of the 4 wires of the cord from the receptacle to the EVSE, that is, leaving the neutral wire unconnected to the EVSE and capped off to avoid accidental connection.

One should NOT connect the neutral and the ground wires together at the appliance/EVSE.

 

[chl]

The Ford 80A EVSE manual requires a 100A breaker, #3 wire for the two hot leads and #6 wire for the ground lead.

If one wanted to use a lower amp set-up, one can set the max amps down from the factory 80A setting to what is desired.

No neutral is required, it assumes a hardwired connection.

One has to consider the wire run length as well to avoid too large a voltage drop, and use higher capacity, lower AWG #, wire as needed.

 

[Maquis]

The Ford 80A EVSE manual requires a 100A breaker, #3 wire for the two hot leads and #6 wire for the ground lead.

If one wanted to use a lower amp set-up, one can set the max amps down from the factory 80A setting to what is desired.

No neutral is required, it assumes a hardwired connection.

Images from the manual attached.

If one wants to use a receptacle, according to the current code, for 60A and above, 4 wire receptacles are required, requiring both ground and neural wires.

But the code allows for connections from the receptacle to match the appliance, e.g., the EVSE.

So it seems one would have to use the required 4 wires from the panel to the receptacle.

But one would be allowed by the code to connect 3 of the 4 wires of the cord from the receptacle to the EVSE, that is, leaving the neutral wire unconnected to the EVSE and capped off to avoid accidental connection.

One should NOT connect the neutral and the ground wires together at the appliance/EVSE.

A couple clarifications:

The NEC does not allow a receptacle outlet connection for EVSEs over 50A. (625.44(B))

The NEC requires equipment to be installed per the manufacturer’s instructions. Since the FCSP instructions only specify hard-wiring, any cord and plug connection scenario would be a violation. (110.3(B))

One has to consider the wire run length as well to avoid too large a voltage drop, and use higher capacity, lower AWG #, wire as needed.

This becomes a bit complicated if using the FCSP at its full rating since the terminals accept nothing larger than #3AWG. The larger wire would need to be transitioned down to #3 at a junction box near the EVSE.

 

[Grumpy2]

How does the GFCI inside the EVSE work properly without a neutral?

 

[Maquis]

How does the GFCI inside the EVSE work properly without a neutral?

The same way all GFCIs work. They sense the net current on all current-carrying conductors. If it’s not less than 6mA, it means objectionable current is flowing via an undesired path (ground) and trips.

 

[djwildstar]

if i've a 100 amp circuit lets say going to NEMA 14-50... would i be able to use a 48AMP chargers on it? like juicebox?

To give some specific answers:

1) You CANNOT put a NEMA 14-50 receptacle on a circuit with a 100A breaker.

As a general rule, the circuit breaker needs to match the specifications of the lowest-rated part of the circuit. So if you have a cable run that is good for 100A but terminates in a 50A receptacle, the breaker must be a 50A breaker. 100A cable is expensive and hard to run (and probably wouldn't fit into the terminals of a 14-50 receptacle), so this probably isn't a good idea. You COULD run a 100A circuit to a garage subpanel, and then install

2) No, you CANNOT plug a JuiceBox 48A EVSE into a 50A circuit for two reasons:.

One, for EV charging, the circuit has to support at least 125% of the charging current of the EVSE. The Juicebox 48 runs at 48A, so 48A x 125% = 60A circuit minimum.

Two, the JuiceBox 48 has to be hard-wired.

To give you some concrete recommendations:

* Hard-wiring an EVSE is vastly preferable to using a plug. There are credible reports of builder-grade 14-50 plugs failing under EVSE use, which is a fire risk.

* For your SR Lightning, a 48A charger hard-wired to a 60A circuit is ideal. The JuiceBox 48 would be a good choice for this (and the Charge Station Pro can be set to 48A and used this way as well).

* Having the builders provide a circuit for future EVs is the cheapest option: it is much cheaper to get a big panel and pull circuits in a house that isn't finished yet than it is to add circuits after the fact.

If I was building a new house today, I would make sure that the electric service and panel support not only the house and EV I have now, but other EVs that may be in the future.

For example, if I was building a new house with a 3-car garage and currently have my SR Lightning, my wife's ICE Explorer, and my son's ICE CR-V, I'd have the builders install 3 60A circuits and pull wire to junction boxes located in the garage convenient to each parking stall. I'd have them actually install a 48A EVSE in one of those stalls (for the Lightning) and just terminate the run for the other two at the junction box. That way if (for example) my wife decides that her next car will be a Tesla, it is a quick and simple job for an electrician to install a Tesla charger; if my son gets a decent job and buys a Mach-E, adding another charger for it is trivial as well. The best part of this scenario is that each charger is on its own circuit, so you don't have to worry about having the chargers coordinate with one another.

Another option would be to run a circuit from the main panel to subpanel in the garage. A 100A circuit would do it, but I'd recommend more if possible. You can then have them install a 48A EVSE on a 60A breaker for your Lightning to the subpanel, leaving the rest of the capacity available for future EV chargers. When adding more EV chargers I would probably want to set up a power-sharing network (which isn't hard, but would over-complicate this example).

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