Lariat ER slow charging is wearing me out

[Yellow Buddy]

Our EV9 is the same: VERY Roomy, and actually DOES Comfortably seat SEVEN, and is very smooth and nice. With 250mile range, we go anywhere at anytime.

My 6’1 Nephew sat in the 3rd row for 2 hours not a single complaint and this kid complains about EVERYTHING. He voluntarily jumped in the back on the 2 hours back home, even when we offered to relocate the car seats. This is in the 6 seater, I’m sure the 7 seater would be tighter.

(He complained in the Model X, and the R1T back seats)

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[Yellow Buddy]

Well I'm driving across South Dakota and Wyoming so there aren't a whole lot of different options for charging. For example Sheridan, WY is a required charge stop for me. Only one plug in the entire town that I can use. Yesterday it took me almost two hours to get to 73%. It's a Chargepoint that maxed out at 44kw. I've seen 63kw from it in the past. One of these days I'm going to get there and there will be several EVs ahead of me. That will mean I'll have to stay the night most likely.

You will also see a couple of videos online. The most notable is the recent Out of Spec one, this car charges differently from a Tesla. If you charge it the same way it will lose those races.

Having owned and road tripped them all the driving style is different.

Tesla: 5-50%. Charge and go. Go go go / look for chargers on the way.

Rivian: 5-70% or thermal throttle. Go go go / look for chargers on the way.

The EV9, you hit the manual precondition button around 15%-20% and look for the nearest 350kW and run her dry if you need to. Then charge to 80% and then go. Don’t try to do anything fancy, just use it and it’ll get the most out of the car.

Go fast, charge fast is the idea in the EV9.

On the Lightning, above 80mph you will take more time to get to your destination, the charging/recovery vs speed/consumption isn’t worth it.

On the EV9/Model X, you want to spend that time above 80mph as you’ll be able to recoup the energy faster than you’ll use it. The difference is on longer trips you’ll start being able to cut charging overhead out with the EV9 where you can’t with the X due to the short stops

On a 600 mile one way, I was within 15minutes of a gas car. The boneheads who “raced” the EV9 used it in the worst possible way. They ran into thermal issues as they couldn’t precondition, travelled at slow speeds because they were short on charge, and sat at chargers with thermal throttling

On a 1200 mile one way trip, I saved over an hour and a half compared to the Lightning. Hope this helps.

 

[VAF84]

Want to chime in because we’re in the middle of a long haul trip, and for the first time I had my charging speeds throttled by EA and Tesla to 85-95kwh after a the quick ramp up to 180kwh. All I can assume is that it’s heat related as temps were 100F, that or the fact that we’d been on the road for most of the day.

It was interesting because after dinner in Lubbock I charged at Tesla and this time I had great charging speeds. So it’s either heat related or something with battery cooling over long distances.

 

[FirstF150InCasco]

Listening to all these stories, I'm greatful that I don't have to deal with these DC chargers. My longest regular drive is 140 miles from my condo in Boston to my camp in Maine. I've a Charge Station Pro at the camp (which cost over $5k to install because there wasn't even enough power on our dirt road). And I have six low-end Level 2 chargers in the garage at the condo (which would take 23 hours to charge the lightning fully.)

Just today, a neighbor asked about buying a Lightning and I told him how much I loved it every time I get in it. But I told him, "Don't buy one unless you have a charger at your home and a charger at your work and a charger at your camp."

I've only used EA chargers occassionally because I want to work down the large balance of free charging Ford gave me when I got delivery of my May 2022 Lariat; the CSP wasn't available so Ford gave me a bunch of free charging. Every time I charge (or, more often than not, ATTEMPT to charge) on an EA, it's a problem.

I'm thrilled to have my NACS adapter which I'll use at the end of the month to visit relatives who live further up in Maine (and just a few minutes from a bank of 8 Tesla SuperChargers, in an otherwise charing desert.)

I'm feel badly for folks who have to put up with all of these charging deserts, etc. As Jim Farley said after his Lightning road trip two summers ago, "The problem isn't range anxiety, it's charging anxiety."

 

[Jseis]

Potato has it dead on. Our pumpkin seed SR Mach E is way more efficient than the brick ER LT. And we are at the dawn of battery tech. Cars of the 60’s had big gas tanks, poor mileage. 300 mile range was about the limit of a VW bug (30 mpg) or V8 sedan (13 mpg). But cheap gas everywhere, who cares? My D200 3/4 with a 4:11 rear probably lucky to get 10 mpg. Now everyone thinks 70-80 mph on the interstate is normal and by god, they need a brick truck with 600 miles range like my ‘99 7.3 Ford SD that’d easily go 600 miles (35 gallon tank & easy 20 mpg, of course my body was on life support after such adventures!).

Ah, such inconveniences. “By more lead” (an expression for more battery) otherwise, drive a hybrid and pay for two power systems. Or a diesel with 40-50 gallons of tank. We are all “early adopters” in this new energy systems evolution and sometimes the math sucks. It works for us w/my 100-150 mile a day commute AND the occasional 900 mile trip to Montana. As noted, charging at home seals the deal as we net $5,000 a year on gas savings. So the math works in the long haul so to speak.

 

[Lightning Rod]

Yesterday it took me almost two hours to get to 73%.

Wow! In 15 months, I've used DCFC at least 2 dozen times on long trips and I've never waited more than 45 minutes to charge to 80 percent. I'm wondering if there is something going on with your truck. I would have the dealer look at it because something doesn't seem right with that.

 

[Hammick]

You will also see a couple of videos online. The most notable is the recent Out of Spec one, this car charges differently from a Tesla. If you charge it the same way it will lose those races.

Having owned and road tripped them all the driving style is different.

Tesla: 5-50%. Charge and go. Go go go / look for chargers on the way.

Rivian: 5-70% or thermal throttle. Go go go / look for chargers on the way.

The EV9, you hit the manual precondition button around 15%-20% and look for the nearest 350kW and run her dry if you need to. Then charge to 80% and then go. Don’t try to do anything fancy, just use it and it’ll get the most out of the car.

Go fast, charge fast is the idea in the EV9.

On the Lightning, above 80mph you will take more time to get to your destination, the charging/recovery vs speed/consumption isn’t worth it.

On the EV9/Model X, you want to spend that time above 80mph as you’ll be able to recoup the energy faster than you’ll use it. The difference is on longer trips you’ll start being able to cut charging overhead out with the EV9 where you can’t with the X due to the short stops

On a 600 mile one way, I was within 15minutes of a gas car. The boneheads who “raced” the EV9 used it in the worst possible way. They ran into thermal issues as they couldn’t precondition, travelled at slow speeds because they were short on charge, and sat at chargers with thermal throttling

On a 1200 mile one way trip, I saved over an hour and a half compared to the Lightning. Hope this helps.

Thanks. That is great info to know. Let me ask you this. Can the EV9 go 200 miles at 80mph if only charged to 80% (and let's say going as low as 10%)? Throw in winter temps and a moderate headwind can it still get 200 miles?

I don't see the v2 superchargers getting upgraded anytime soon if ever so I need a solid 200 mile range. And I'd love to be able to skip the slow single plug in Sheridan, WY and to do that I'd need 232 mile range and I'd be willing to drop my speed on that leg to 70mph if needed.

The Wyoming legislature gave back all their NEVI money for Political reasons.

 

[Hammick]

Wow! In 15 months, I've used DCFC at least 2 dozen times on long trips and I've never waited more than 45 minutes to charge to 80 percent. I'm wondering if there is something going on with your truck. I would have the dealer look at it because something doesn't seem right with that.

It was a 63kw charger that was only putting out 44kw and I started at 15%. Only charger in town other than the V2 Superchargers at the Best Western.

This charger is located at the Jeep dealer in Sheridan. The just opened a brand new GMC dealer that was supposed to have several fast chargers. I popped in and they told me they opted out of the EVs and won't be installing any chargers. The campground across the street from this dealer won't allow EVs to plug in and they are very strict about enforcing it.

Wyoming is probably the most anti-EV state in the lower 48.

 

[hturnerfamily]

[EV9]....This is in the 6 seater, I’m sure the 7 seater would be tighter.

(He complained in the Model X, and the R1T back seats)

no, as the LIGHT EV9 simply has a bench60/40 split middle seat, for even MORE room...the rears are exactly the same...

 

[Yellow Buddy]

no, as the LIGHT EV9 simply has a bench60/40 split middle seat, for even MORE room...the rears are exactly the same...

Even for legs? He was able to extend his leg into the aisle and the sides of the captains chairs. Not sure how that would work or if they could slide under on the 7 seater.

 

[hturnerfamily]

It was a 63kw charger that was only putting out 44kw and I started at 15%.

right, and this is the point: some 'complain' about DC Fast Charging, and yet are comparing apples to oranges...

any EA 350 'Hyper Speed' station means NOTHING to most EVs, as few, if any, can ever get anywhere CLOSE to that: it's simply ADVERTISING and MARKETING.
Now, these stations are 'supposed' to be able to charge at faster speeds, YES, but ONLY if your EV can handle those faster speeds... for instance, no matter how fast an EA station might claim, your CHEVY BOLT is NEVER going to charge faster than 50kw - it's maximum.

If you are a LIGHTNING, chances are you will NEVER receive anything beyond what the truck can already receive at the 'normal' EA stations that are 150kw. You might see 165-168 for a few minutes, yes, as these stations and their advertised speeds are 'relative' to power output factors that aren't always limited to 'only' the stated speed of the station. Our Lightnings are capped at about 165-160 or so, no matter what station speed is available.

If you, though, want to complain about charging speeds, you have to then be able to ascertain the capabilities of the station you are using, and many times also the other elements during that charge period, such as TEMPERATURE. Sometimes, even the unit itself is not putting out the stated kw speed, and is artificially slower.
CHARGEPOINTS are good at 'advertising' 125kw Shared speeds, but that will never happen. They are actually advertising the highest speed that TWO vehicles can get, simultaneously, at the same time. If only a single vehicle is charging, you'll likely never see more than 100kw, on your own. That's not a 'terrible' speed, but it's not what you might think it should be giving you.

Telsa Superchargers are many times 250kw stations, although I'll assure you that you'll never see that. They can reduce speeds to all units, or some units, if other vehicles are charging at the same time. That really has nothing to do with YOUR vehicle.

So, in essence, there really is no 'silver bullet' to charging speeds, or any 'tricks' to get you more. You're at the mercy of so many variables. While it's great to see 168kw for many minutes when you first arrive, it's also typical that those speeds aren't going to last for the whole charging curve, and accepting 100kw or similar numbers for the vast majority of time might be more in line with expectations.

I've seen relatively similar numbers and curves whether I am at a 350kw EA, or a 250kw Tesla Supercharger, or a 300kw EVgo, etc. Our trucks DO determine the charge curve, on a Maximum allowed input, but the station's variables are going to play an even bigger part of the equation.

 

[hturnerfamily]

Even for legs? He was able to extend his leg into the aisle and the sides of the captains chairs. Not sure how that would work or if they could slide under on the 7 seater.

with so many variables in the positions of the middle seats, whether up or down, or pushed forward or back, I don't see how it could be much different... though having the option of the middle seat's usage of the 'middle' section could be quite important to many folks... and less to others. It's likely that 6'1" folks don't ride in ANY third-row seat very often, no matter what vehicle we are referring to. I wouldn't buy a vehicle just because of that rare need, if ever.

 

[Yellow Buddy]

Thanks. That is great info to know. Let me ask you this. Can the EV9 go 200 miles at 80mph if only charged to 80% (and let's say going as low as 10%)? Throw in winter temps and a moderate headwind can it still get 200 miles?

I don't see the v2 superchargers getting upgraded anytime soon if ever so I need a solid 200 mile range. And I'd love to be able to skip the slow single plug in Sheridan, WY and to do that I'd need 232 mile range and I'd be willing to drop my speed on that leg to 70mph if needed.

The Wyoming legislature gave back all their NEVI money for Political reasons.

The superchargers are going to be near worthless on the EV9s, because of the way the packs are setup; we won’t get anymore than 80kW until the V4 SCs roll out.

I replied to you on the Kia forums as well, in a worse case scenario - heat usage, headwinds, elevation, and a 80mph average - no, I don’t think it can reliably.

And just to clarify, I’m using true 80mph average according to OBD reading. We need to get on the same page on that as it can change the data drastically
Meaning if I have stretches of 60mph, I would need to go 100mph to average 80mph.

If we’re not using true 80mph average and we’re talking normal driving on local roads and on the highway set the cruise to 80mph, I find the OBD reports those as averages closer to 65-70mph.

This trip for example, I went 176 miles on 75% SOC, varying elevation, moderate headwinds and ended around 3-5%.

A quick glance would make you feel like that’s a 75mph average. I even touched 90mph at multiple points. The trip planner shows this as only a 63mph average.

So based on that, do I think you can do a true 70mph average, in the cold, with headwinds, with elevation, and go 200 mi on 80%? Not likely…I think it would be too close for comfort for most folks.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ventorum94]

right, and this is the point: some 'complain' about DC Fast Charging, and yet are comparing apples to oranges...

any EA 350 'Hyper Speed' station means NOTHING to most EVs, as few, if any, can ever get anywhere CLOSE to that: it's simply ADVERTISING and MARKETING.
Now, these stations are 'supposed' to be able to charge at faster speeds, YES, but ONLY if your EV can handle those faster speeds... for instance, no matter how fast an EA station might claim, your CHEVY BOLT is NEVER going to charge faster than 50kw - it's maximum.

If you are a LIGHTNING, chances are you will NEVER receive anything beyond what the truck can already receive at the 'normal' EA stations that are 150kw. You might see 165-168 for a few minutes, yes, as these stations and their advertised speeds are 'relative' to power output factors that aren't always limited to 'only' the stated speed of the station. Our Lightnings are capped at about 165-160 or so, no matter what station speed is available.

If you, though, want to complain about charging speeds, you have to then be able to ascertain the capabilities of the station you are using, and many times also the other elements during that charge period, such as TEMPERATURE. Sometimes, even the unit itself is not putting out the stated kw speed, and is artificially slower.
CHARGEPOINTS are good at 'advertising' 125kw Shared speeds, but that will never happen. They are actually advertising the highest speed that TWO vehicles can get, simultaneously, at the same time. If only a single vehicle is charging, you'll likely never see more than 100kw, on your own. That's not a 'terrible' speed, but it's not what you might think it should be giving you.

Telsa Superchargers are many times 250kw stations, although I'll assure you that you'll never see that. They can reduce speeds to all units, or some units, if other vehicles are charging at the same time. That really has nothing to do with YOUR vehicle.

So, in essence, there really is no 'silver bullet' to charging speeds, or any 'tricks' to get you more. You're at the mercy of so many variables. While it's great to see 168kw for many minutes when you first arrive, it's also typical that those speeds aren't going to last for the whole charging curve, and accepting 100kw or similar numbers for the vast majority of time might be more in line with expectations.

I've seen relatively similar numbers and curves whether I am at a 350kw EA, or a 250kw Tesla Supercharger, or a 300kw EVgo, etc. Our trucks DO determine the charge curve, on a Maximum allowed input, but the station's variables are going to play an even bigger part of the equation.

It’s simple, really. The most current output by DCFC is 500A (and that’s only at the EA “Hyperfast” 350kW or competitor’s equivalent). THAT is one constraint on charging power; the other is the voltage of the Lightning’s battery pack: mid-300V. So, 500A x 340V = 170kW. Don’t look for more than 500A from a DCFC, ever- and the Lightning’s pack voltage is-what-it-is, cannot be changed, so 170kW will remain the upper limit of charging. Only redesigning in the future to allow 600V-800V architecture while charging (the GM Silverado approach, split the pack into two equals, connect in parallel for driving, and in series to double the pack voltage while charging) will make faster charge rates for Lightnings than 170kW.

 

[potato]

It’s simple, really. The most current output by DCFC is 500A (and that’s only at the EA “Hyperfast” 350kW or competitor’s equivalent). THAT is one constraint on charging power; the other is the voltage of the Lightning’s battery pack: mid-300V. So, 500A x 340V = 170kW. Don’t look for more than 500A from a DCFC, ever- and the Lightning’s pack voltage is-what-it-is, cannot be changed, so 170kW will remain the upper limit of charging. Only redesigning in the future to allow 600V-800V architecture while charging (the GM Silverado approach, split the pack into two equals, connect in parallel for driving, and in series to double the pack voltage while charging) will make faster charge rates for Lightnings than 170kW.

This should be stickied somewhere. The relatively low pack voltage of the Lightning is a huge huge factor. At least around where I have traveled in western Canada, it is the limiting factor. "50 kW" chargers around here are 125A max. 125A * 350V = 44 kW actual charging rate at low-ish state of charge. "100 kW" chargers are 200A max. 200A * 350V = 70 kW.

The pack voltage increases as state of charge increases, and therefore so does the charging rate. So when limited by charging current, the optimal strategy is to charge often, keeping the state of charge as close to 80% as possible. After 80% of course the truck limits charge rate to ~55 kW. If charging at the aforementioned "50 kW" chargers, then keep charging up to the second charging rate dropoff at 89% SOC. The actual charge rate approaches the true 50 kW the higher the state of charge gets, up to that point.

This is significantly different from other common battery packs where the prevailing wisdom is to keep the SOC low, only charging enough to get to the next charger. With the Lightning you want to keep it high.

Or, if you have higher current chargers available (e.g. Tesla, 350 kW EA) then ignore the above and do whatever works for you.

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