Charging with 14-50 outlet in California - Issues

[Solar_EE]

There is a multitude of issues: NEC code has become very "expensive" when it comes to breakers. AFCI or combination breakers almost everywhere, GFCI required in many places. While I agree in some places, others are just adding lots of cost. AFCI/GFCI breakers cost 5-0x the price of a normal breaker.
I am surprised they do not require AFCI for EV chargers or the outlets. This would have certainly avoided some of the connector/plug meltdowns.
Then, a GFCI is a protection device. Given the voltage and amps an EV charger uses, a GFCI should always be used, same as with bathroom outlets or any outdoor outlet. Especially if you park your car outside. If the GFCI trips, it is for a reason and the reason should be found. This can include a faulty GFCI, I have had a few of those.

DIY installs is a question of comfort and the right tools. A torque screwdriver is one thing to have at hand.

I just completed my Wallbox install today, fully hardwired (yes, I am a believer in hard wired), screws torqued to spec. But I am very comfortable around electricity and have the tools. If it breaks? I have a few charge options around me I could use. Or I just figure out a way to make it work. It is on a GFCI breaker and due to not needing a neutral, I just saved the $25 copper.

For now it is a temporary setup while we build a new garage. The garage will have wiring for 2 x 100 amp hard wired and a 4-50 outlet. Maybe a possibility to set up a charger next to the driveway. Will I use it? Not sure, but I want to be ready.


Cost: I see prices all over the place. Here is a quick breakdown of my cost. These are just the materials to give everyone a better understanding.
50A GFCI breaker: $100
60 ft THHN/THWN (3x L1, L2, Gnd): $80
PVC Conduit, 90 bends, LB's: $100
Small parts: $ 20
Wallbox (on sale) $550
Dedicated CT for power measurement: $20

Everything is set up, integrated into Home Assistant. My truck is on a railcar somewhere outside of Detroit.

60 feet at what AWG? 6 gauge?

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[viennaxmas]

60 feet at what AWG? 6 gauge?

Yes, 6 AWG. I ended up using 50 ft. According to calculations, voltage drop is under 2 Volts.

 

[ivan256]

California updated the electrical code recently to require that all newly installed garage outlet circuits be protected by a GFCI circuit breaker in the panel. Unfortunately that means if you install a new NEMA 14-50 outlet in California it WONT WORK reliably with ANY EVSE you plug in. Not with the unit supplied with the Mach-E or the Lightning, not with the Tesla mobile connector, not with third party ones either. Essentially they have made it impossible to have a new outlet that you can plug-in an EVSE.

So the choice is:
1 Convince the inspector to sign off on a regular breaker
2 swap the GFCI breaker out for a normal breaker after the inspector goes away
3 Give up and use a hardwired EVSE.

Unfortunately my electrician only told me this after I had paid big bucks for a new 14-50 outlet.

Get a circuit tester so you can be confident it's wired correctly.

Then go with option 2.

Keep the GFCI breaker in the bottom of the panel so you can swap it back in if you ever need an inspection in the future. Or if you're uncomfortable in the panel ask your electrician. They'll probably swap your GFCI out post-inspection if you complain enough. They're already doing for people who complain after people figure out they can't vacuum or run a blender on AFCI breakers.

 

[Amps]

if you're uncomfortable in the panel ask your electrician. They'll probably swap your GFCI out post-inspection if you complain enough.

Leaving behind an unprotected 50A/240V circuit (where protection is required) is a whole new level of possible shock exposure on a post-inspection panel. The 240V shock hazard plugging or unplugging at the 14-50 receptacle are the exposed 1/2"W X 1.25" L energized blades. A very large majority of the public has never dealt with these things.

Asking a licensed electrician to do a post-inspection swap in a locality that requires GFCIs for that circuit puts their license, insurance, and personal liability in jeopardy. "It's just between you and me" doesn't go very far if there's a dead body or injury involved.

 

[3121]

I live in Cali. I just told my electrician the 14-50 outlet is for my “welder”. I believe the code only requires a GFCI breaker if it’s intended for charging a car.

 

[jdmackes]

Well, the experts here are telling me that it’s not from the GFCI. I have used two FMC’s with the same behavior. Neither one has a problem with my other 14-50 outlet (which is wired from the older code, a normal 50 amp breaker).

It’s true, I haven’t tried my Tesla mobile or a plug-in Autel yet.

I started the thread because I think this is something worthy of reporting and figuring out.

I will continue to work with my electrician though.

From what you're saying here, it looks like it's an issue with the way this 14-50 outlet was wired. If the FMC's are working on your other 14-50, and trip on the GFCI one, there is something wrong with the GFCI one, not the FMC's (unless I'm missing something)

 

[ivan256]

Leaving behind an unprotected 50A/240V circuit (where protection is required) is a whole new level of possible shock exposure on a post-inspection panel. The 240V shock hazard plugging or unplugging at the 14-50 receptacle are the exposed 1/2"W X 1.25" L energized blades. A very large majority of the public has never dealt with these things.

Asking a licensed electrician to do a post-inspection swap in a locality that requires GFCIs for that circuit puts their license, insurance, and personal liability in jeopardy. "It's just between you and me" doesn't go very far if there's a dead body or injury involved.

I don't mean leave behind the circuit. I mean leave behind the (non connected) breaker.

I don't understand the compulsion to post cover-your-ass style comments on the internet in defiance of reality. Reality happens every day. Show me ten electricians who claim they would never do this and you'll probably show me eight liars.

If you've got an electrician that's one of the other two, make him keep coming back until the GFCI stops tripping when you plug a UL Listed device into it.

 

[Pioneer74]

I live in Cali. I just told my electrician the 14-50 outlet is for my “welder”. I believe the code only requires a GFCI breaker if it’s intended for charging a car.

It doesn't matter what the use of the receptacle is. NEC requires GFCI protection on any receptacle used in a damp location. A garage falls under that classification.

 

[3121]

It doesn't matter what the use of the receptacle is. NESC requires GFCI protection on any receptacle used in a damp location. A garage falls under that classification.

Ah good to know, I guess my sparky was just hooking me up

 

[Henry Ford]

I don't mean leave behind the circuit. I mean leave behind the (non connected) breaker.

I don't understand the compulsion to post cover-your-ass style comments on the internet in defiance of reality. Reality happens every day. Show me ten electricians who claim they would never do this and you'll probably show me eight liars.

If you've got an electrician that's one of the other two, make him keep coming back until the GFCI stops tripping when you plug a UL Listed device into it.

In this case the stated fact pattern doesn't support the GFCI being the issue. It might be the issue or it might be doing exactly what it's supposed to do. Swapping the breaker might be papering over bad wiring.

 

[Amps]

I don't mean leave behind the circuit. I mean leave behind the (non connected) breaker.

It's what you posted:

if you're uncomfortable in the panel ask your electrician. They'll probably swap your GFCI out post-inspection if you complain enough

Going in right after a final and swapping out a GFCI–where it's required–because the customer asks you to could go really badly for somebody feeding a family with a license. In the unlikely event someone gets hurt, the homeowner will not suffer from amnesia and lie about it and there may be images on file in the computer with the Final.

I don't understand the compulsion to post cover-your-ass style comments on the internet in defiance of reality. Reality happens every day. Show me ten electricians who claim they would never do this and you'll probably show me eight liars.

It's not meant to be cover-your-ass as much as pointing out that it's a bad ask from a customer. Nuisance trips are a pain. They can be addressed. The OP makes it seem like a black-and-white issue with EVSEs. Personally, I wish the NEC had gone with a covered, interlocked 50A plug, but that would be even more complicated and expensive.

As far as the eight out of ten electricians being liars, reality is that all ten will be nuanced if asked to do this. The eight liars probably wouldn't do it at the electrical inspector's house, the mayor's house, an apartment block, or a Bring-Your-Own-Charger public parking stall, etc., etc.

 

[ivan256]

Clearly electricians and electrical inspectors work very differently around you than they do around here.

Around here. good luck even finding an electrician that would pull a permit for a garage outlet. Or an inspector who would respond to a complaint about a local electrician who didn't.

Personally, I wish the NEC had gone with a covered, interlocked 50A plug, but that would be even more complicated and expensive.

Why on earth would you wish that? To protect people from the (goes to check) zero plug-in EVSE electrocution deaths that are happening every year?

Incremental safety increases with no justification are a cancer. It all adds up and it's REALLY expensive. $60 here, $60 there, multiply it by a few hundred times to make a new home compliant with the code and suddenly you can't afford your house anymore. But at least you're not going to die from that thing that wasn't going to kill you anyway....

 

[astricklin]

OP needs to call the electrician that they paid a tidy sum of money to and have them come and fix it. If anything plugged in is causing the breaker to trip, there's obviously something wrong with the outlet or the wiring.

 

[Maquis]

Incremental safety increases with no justification are a cancer. It all adds up and it's REALLY expensive. $60 here, $60 there, multiply it by a few hundred times to make a new home compliant with the code and suddenly you can't afford your house anymore. But at least you're not going to die from that thing that wasn't going to kill you anyway....

You just described the code now requiring AFCIs to a T. The sad thing is that they don’t even do what they’re claimed to do. Simply revenue for the device manufacturers who bullied them into the NEC.
Sorry for the digression!

 

[Sneakypetie78]

California updated the electrical code recently to require that all newly installed garage outlet circuits be protected by a GFCI circuit breaker in the panel. Unfortunately that means if you install a new NEMA 14-50 outlet in California it WONT WORK reliably with ANY EVSE you plug in. Not with the unit supplied with the Mach-E or the Lightning, not with the Tesla mobile connector, not with third party ones either. Essentially they have made it impossible to have a new outlet that you can plug-in an EVSE.

So the choice is:
1 Convince the inspector to sign off on a regular breaker
2 swap the GFCI breaker out for a normal breaker after the inspector goes away
3 Give up and use a hardwired EVSE.

Unfortunately my electrician only told me this after I had paid big bucks for a new 14-50 outlet.

5 years ago I was remodeling my current home. I'm a licensed General Contractor. When doing the electrical and installing required GFCI breakers per code at the time, Including to Refrigerator, washer/dryer circuit, disposal circuit, dishwasher circuit, etc... I questioned the motor loads on GFCI's because I heard they could be a pain. The inspector agreed that the motor loads can be a nuisance causing GFCI breakers to trip. My wash machine breaker has tripped probably 5 times in 5 years from a GFCI fault. The disposal did almost every time I turned it on.

I may have altered breakers after the inspector signed off on my job. He may or may not have told me that "what I do after he leaves is up to me".

All is well.

Do as you wish in your home. A tripped GFCI doesn't necessarily mean you have a bad charger.

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